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 Post subject: Second Life: Effing Up MMOGs
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:11 am 
The Original Dark Knight™
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Lately it seems like everyone and their grandmothers are playing SecondLife. And I honestly have no idea why. For those of you that don't know, SecondLife is a pseudo-MMOG mixed together with a chat room. A very obnoxious chat room. It's quickly gaining the attention of techies and now, the U.S. government. Why would the government be interest in a game like SL? Well, everyday over $500,000 worth of real money is involved during in-game transactions. And now the Congressional Joint Economic Committee wants to start taxing people for virtual incomes and assets.

Well, SL is one thing, but if something like this happens, how far away is it from when gil, gold, or whatever starts getting taxed as well? I'm sure this gives more ammo for Yarr to say how much he hates America. Now I don't see the appeal to SL, nor do I play it. Hell, I don't even see how a game that isn't really a game can possibly be fun. But I'm concerned on what this could mean for the state of online gaming in the future. Granted SL uses real money to convert into their imaginary online money, honestly, so does WoW and FFXI. You may not, but it's almost a guarantee that someone you know does or did.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:42 am 
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I can't even Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis how they can tax such an international market. SL comes up in the news every once and awhile, and it just seems confusing to me... how can game be so diverse in activities and still have a usable interface that makes sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:56 am 
Star-Spangled Subligar
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A good friend of mine tried to get me to play Second Life quite a while ago. I would probably say about a year and a half ago.

Its an interesting design idea. Players can create their own digital items and sell them ingame for real money. Still its just another sex pool. He was telling me that all the normal content is garbage. The only content thats well done is all the perverted stuff like giant elephant penis toys and stuff like that. He only played it (or so he said) was to just laugh at all that stuff. To his credit, he is one of those guys who constantly shows us the most disterbing and funny things on the net. I dont think hes a perv himself, I just think he finds it funny and loves pointing it out to people.

Anyway

I saw this artcle and I was about to post it when I saw this thread.






Quote:
LONDON (Reuters) - Users of online worlds such as Second Life and World of Warcraft transact millions of dollars worth of virtual goods and services every day, and these virtual economies are beginning to draw the attention of real-world authorities.

"Right now we're at the preliminary stages of looking at the issue and what kind of public policy questions virtual economies raise -- taxes, barter exchanges, property and wealth," said Dan Miller, senior economist for the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress.

"You could argue that to a certain degree the law has fallen (behind) because you can have a virtual asset and virtual capital gains, but there's no mechanism by which you're taxed on this stuff," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.

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The increasing size and public profile of virtual economies, the largest of which have millions of users and gross domestic products that rival those of small countries, have made them increasingly difficult for lawmakers and regulators to ignore.

Second Life, for example, was specifically designed by San Francisco-based Linden Lab to have a free-flowing market economy. Its internal currency, the Linden dollar, can be converted into U.S. dollars through an open currency exchange, making it effectively "real" money.

Inside Second Life, users can buy and sell virtual objects from T-shirts to helicopters, develop virtual real estate, or hire out services ranging from architecture to exotic dancing. Up to $500,000 in user-to-user transactions take place every day, and the Second Life economy is growing by 10 to 15 percent a month.

"Ownership, property rights, all that stuff needs to be decided. There's just too much money floating around," said game designer Sam Lewis, who trained as an economist and has worked on games such as Star Wars Galaxies. He is currently lead designer for an upcoming game from Cartoon Network.

"The tax laws don't know how to behave because these are virtual items: ones and zeros on a database we're allowing you to play in," he said.

Even if it is inevitable, Lewis is not exactly looking forward to having real-life tax collectors enter the virtual world.


"I'm a designer that thinks any sort of boundaries or rules actually give you an interesting challenge to overcome, but I don't particularly want the IRS coming in," he said.

The rapid emergence of virtual economies has outstripped current tax law in many areas, but there are some clear-cut guidelines that already apply. For example, people who cash out of virtual economies by converting their assets into real-world currencies are required to report their incomes to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service or the tax authority where they live in the real world.

It is less clear how to deal with income and capital gains that never leave the virtual economy, income and capital gains that in the real world would be subject to taxes.

"Let's say the IRS decides they want a valuation of your assets. We don't have a stock market where we can as of the 31st of December, these assets went up, these went down," Lewis said.

Miller, of the Joint Economic Committee, who became interested in the issue when he began exploring some of the virtual worlds in his free time, said he has an open mind about how real world tax authorities should interact with virtual economies.

"We are starting with a blank slate and going through the various dimensions of virtual economies, and seeing where they might intersect with public policy," he said. Miller hopes to have a rough draft of a report done by the end of the year.

But first, he has to educate some of his colleagues.

"I found that talking about this issue with some of the other economists on the committee, they are not really familiar with what a virtual economy is. The idea of Second Life or World of Warcraft or some of these other synthetic universes, they have trouble wrapping their head around it," he said.

However, there are probably some on Capitol Hill who won't require much explanation. "I can almost guarantee that there are some members of Congress spending time in Second Life or World of Warcraft," he said.

(For more coverage of Second Life, where Reuters is opening a virtual news bureau, go to http://secondlife.reuters.com)




and yes, this is just another reason why the USA is a sad pathetic place to live.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:07 am 
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yarr ive seen in you a disgust towards america lately. lol i agree we got big problems. canada > usa. but we arent completely hopeless yet.

Second Life? what kinda name is that. i hate it. yet.. at the same time, it makes me want to abandon my First Life, and i havent even seen the game yet. haha

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:38 am 
Star-Spangled Subligar
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Whisp wrote:
yarr ive seen in you a disgust towards america lately. lol i agree we got big problems. canada > usa. but we arent completely hopeless yet.


My disgust is only a concern and fear for canada. What happens in the USA almost always happens in Canada. While our laws around Weed are far more lax and our women can walk around topless (in Ontario), for the most part Canada looks to the USA as an example of what to do (and when we are lucky what not to do).

So any time I see the USA do something stupid im like "oh god, I hope someone over here doesnt think thats a good idea".

I dont really think Canada is better than the USA. I think we both have our faults. I just think the USA always manages to make mistakes that land on the front page.

oh and as soon as Bush is out of office the USA will be doing a lot better. That guy just makes all of america look stupid.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:13 am 
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I blame this on the gilsellers and gilbuyers for making these types of transactions take place. People spending RL cash on a MMORPG is fucking stupid and lame, if people do it and get taxed that can only discourage them from doing it. When a government doesn't like something and can't technically make it illegal, they would usually tax that thing if at all possible. Like the tax on cigarettes haha, fuck the gilbuyers and gilsellers. This will raise the popularity for MMOs where RMT is less of an issue hopefully because people will be sick of playing shit that others can spend RL cash to cheat.

RMT is already a demotivating factor for those who play MMOs, this just shits on things further. Probably a way to stifle the growth of the MMO userbase as well. More of America not being the land of the free you think? You can still RMT legally in the US, but you will be taxed for doing it now. Them taxing the rest of the online currency is another thing altogether. I oppose this but I can understand their intent. The government might want to study the actual economies and games more to better understand how to actually change the situation of RMT in MMOs. This will effect people who play MMOs that are run by companies based in the US I would think. I don't think the US could tax something in a game that has its servers in Japan or Korea.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:23 am 
The Original Dark Knight™
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I think you aren't grasping what they really mean by taxing funds and assets for online games. Even if you don't buy/sell online currency, if you held any you would have to pay a tax on it, because of it's worth in real life money. So, say you have 20 million gil. You'd pay a tax in dollars for holding it. If anything, it would encourage RMT more. Since you'd actually want to get something out of your fake money.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:49 am 
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Yeah I get they are intending on taxing online currency period. They might have to just tax transactions between players like on top of the AH tax and bazaar tax and in addition through trade windows themselves. This will hurt more than just gilsellers, it will decrease the overall userbase of MMOs. That is why I said I oppose it lol. If they just were taxing the transactions made with the RMT companies I could understand, but that is impossible due to things like Paypal. That is why I said the government needs to study MMOs economically on a individual basis to understand fully how to combat this type of thing if thats their burning issue. Personally I don't think RMT in MMOs is an important enough issue to warrant that type of work, especially when there are bigger and more looming issues on the table.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:18 am 
Star-Spangled Subligar
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Yeah if they did end up putting a tax on all my online transactions I would just quit all my MMORPGs. Although right now Im not playing any MMOs that cost money (yeah first time in like 7 years I havent had a subscription, but I am playing one game, its for free thought).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:21 am 
The Original Dark Knight™
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It's just amazing how most people over 40 just don't get current technology. lol This, and the general video game crusade are the perfect examples.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:41 am 
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It really does boil down to the ignorance of the older generation to todays technology.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:01 pm 
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Hopefully with the upcoming elections, there will be a shift to a more liberal house/senate, so we can worry less about the religious zealots dictacting a lot of policy right now.

They banned online gambling, except for horse racing and certain federal/state lottos. Go figure that they still allow the snobby horse racing, just because it's something enjoyed by rich republicans.

I used to consider myself more Republican than Democrat, but that was mainly because I didn't like the idea of being forced to spend money on programs that help people who I think should take some responsibility for their own actions. But lately, I've just been disgusted by the republican party.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:03 pm 
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I was done with partisan politics by 15. Now I'm taking a ton of Polisci and have a way more complete set of political values and I'm probably going to major in political science. And yet, I fucking hate it so much at the same time lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:19 pm 
The Original Dark Knight™
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If you're going to be a poli sci major, I hope for your sake that we (the United States) invade another country, topple their government, and completely cripple their economy so that you can experiment on your latest theories.


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