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RDM 75/DRK 61/WHM 37
Cloth 53 - Cook 41
Bastok Rank 10 - ZMComplete - CoP 5-3

some people are sick.

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-_- o m g

Dude... look at ur avatar... lol

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I don't know how to feel when I read these articles. I have some sort of extreme fustration with these malacious christians.

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

lol, conan o'brien talked about this just now

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Havok~San'd Rank 10~ZM DONE~CoP DONE
DRG75 WAR75 NIN37 THF37 SAM37 WHM36

I think Christians that come up with this stuff are closet pot-smokers or acid trip hippies or something. First Harry Potter is Satan's new turning tool, now this....sad sad sad :|

yea but when you think about it people are exactly the same way towards chistians here in america. In california the Declaration of Independace has been banned from schools cause it has the word God in it. I think people should just let things be. Christians arnt evil and Spounge Bob isnt gay. Honestly you dont hear the church condeming things that often most of the time its the god haters condeming the church. Weather you beleive in God or not the church still puts out a good message and should be promoted more then it is.


Nick

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JOINING OF SIX!

;; I had to use something ;; the boobie avatar was getting old ;;

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-_- o m g

Hell no! The boobies never get old, ever.

Put them back on, its a good passtime for me at work. =p

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unick has good points. No way do average every day christians think this, I'm just referring to the evangelists that appear on my college campus to stir up ruckus everyday (those types). However, they make my average walks to class slightly more interesting sometimes

I dont consider Conformity, Prejudice, Grovelling, and Tithing as a good message.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

from the article you posted,
"But James Dobson, founder of right-wing Christian group Focus on the Family, singled out SpongeBob at a black-tie dinner in Washington in the run-up to President Bush's inauguration, the New York Times said."

that paragraph speaks volumes.

and i bet there are as many if not more gays in Conservativism as any other political group, albeit their homosexuality is tucked very very deep in their closet.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

the christian message is alot better then the anti christian message lets go over some things

Its ok to kill babbies but not ok to kill evil ppl that kill inocent people
its ok to let criminals go because the were "abused as children"
its wrong to spank your child but its ok to let them grow up to be unmannered little pricks who have no respect for anyone or anything

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JOINING OF SIX!

you forgot

its ok for priests to sexually abuse childeren and then to move them to a different church instead of sending them to jail.

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You ride! You Fight! You Kill! Because it's right!

How about the dogmatic religious side-
It's ok to molest young boys, you won't get reprimanded just transferred.
It's ok to teach school children the universe was created oh a whim by someone we've never seen.
It's ok to blatantly act superior to people who don't have the same philosophical options about existence as you.

I dunno man, people who aren't christian arent necessarily abortionists who let murderers walk the streets and program their children to be oblivious to the benefits of mutual human respect.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

This is not just my opinion (I hope). I was raised, and I am a confirmed Catholic, however, I've since departed regulary attending church to pursue my own understanding of spirtiuality. I do not agree with organized religion on most ideals.



First off no modernized religious group promotes murder, death, or killing of people (at least in our decade, don't give me a history lesson, I'm very aware of crusades, the middle east, and general European history). Most religious groups that I'm familiar with in accepted American society either support abortion and the death penalty, or dissapprove of abortion and the death penalty. For some people opposing one and accepting another is as you plainly put, inconsistent, however my own ethics find abortion a-ok. Its a choice. If you don't like abortions then don't get them.

Second point. No, its not ok to let criminals go because they were abused by children. It is, however, ok to send them to the appropriate psyciatric facilities to try and rehabilitate them into a functional human being again, and if that fails then permanent incarceration would probably be up next.

Finally your last point. It is ok to spank children. Its not ok to leave bruises on your children. Theres a pretty fine difference between a quick swat on the ass and lasting bruises. Even if you refuse to act aggressively towards your child, discipline is still nessecary in some shapes and forms which I will not discuss as it would move away from the point I'm trying to make. Children acting like total disrespectful asshats is the parents failure in most respects, and if your children is acting like a jerk its not because you were supposed to beat them into submission.

Alright, on to Whisp.



First off theres nothing in Christian Dogma about abusing children. I, however, will not defend the sick #$*(s that acted on those children nor will I defend the transfers. They should've been immediately notified to the proper authorities once they're actions were uncovered. Lastly on this point, which is completely unrelated to child abuse, priests are often trasnferred and shuffled around to different churches on the same demonination as a standard protocol. I'm not sure if this is what the stories refer too, or if the churches specifically knew that they were molesting children amd transferring to cover it up. If it be the latter then I'm sure many parties earned their respective front row seats in Satan's maw.

The second point is one I do agree with. I hope the statistic I read was wrong when it said that the average American believes in creationism. Creationism is not science. Creationism and its narrative is a religous belief. Science has understood the creation of the Earth and modern man through a series of cosmic catastophies and unusual/nifty genetic mutations over millions of years. Teach Creationism in church. Teach Science in the classroom. Keep science out of church, it doesn't belong there.

The last point is one that concerns me the most. I sincerely hope, Whisp, that the average 'Christian' you meet is not as you described. While true some christians and retarded 'emo' kids (emo being from my personal expereince of college hallmates, generalizations nonwithstanding) like to believe they have a moral high ground because they might feel 'special' or 'accepted' into their respective church. They are, however, gaping anuses. If they don't give you respect, do not converse with them, or show them respect in hopes of bringing their heads back down to earth.

If you have any more questions regarding moral and equality religion then please feel free to ask. I don't like reading posts like Whisp's or Unick's as they do not reflect a good deal of actual Christians.

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

OK I think there are some things that need to be said here. First off, I am a Christian, so keep that in mind when I am expressing my opinion here. I think it is a mistake to generalize Christians or non-Christians, as each person is an individual and makes individual decisions about the choices they make and the way they live their lives. Some of the nicest people I know are not Christians, and there are some Christians I wouldn't trust enough to loan them a dollar.

The point is that people are people, and regardless of their religion, some will be good and some not so good. As a whole, I think Christians are mostly good people, and for the most part, have good intentions. I would contend that most Christians do not take extreme stand on pointless arguments about SpongeBob or Harry Potter or the Teletubbies or whatever. As a Christian, I think it is a much more common belief that the most important thing is how you treat other people. I can understand how some people can feel like some Christians can act like know-it-alls and hypocrites. It is a fact that some do, and give other Christians a bad name. However, I do not believe this represents Christians as a whole.

Also I do not think that it is necessarily a bad thing that we learn about some of the beliefs that made our country a great place to begin with. Christianity is part of our cultural heritage whether we want to admit it or not. However, we must include the good with the bad, like how we originally had freedom of religion, as long as it was Christianity, just to name an example of things in the past that weren't all good. I think one of the things that has led to a decline in our society was the removal of all things having any remote tie to Christianity from schools. There are many ways you can teach about ethics in general without teaching specifically about religion.

I guess the main point I have been trying to make is that I find it pretty disconcerting that many people have a negative view about Christians. In fact, Christians have become one of the few groups remaining that is still PC to make jokes about. I guess on one hand we may have brought some of this on ourselves. One of the common sayings that we have is that one of the poorest examples for Christianity can often be Christians themselves. It also makes sense that non-Christians would remember more clearly instances when a Christian was rude, or a poor example etc. But I want to restate that not all Christians, in fact a very small minority, are like that. We are people and we make mistakes just like everyone else.

I hope for my part, I have displayed good character both in my life and in this game. Maybe if people can see the good, as well as the bad, they can see Christians in a more positive light. At the very least, I will try to do my part to help people see the positive.

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LS: TheMonarchy
The Bearded Hume Player/Coach for the Washington Generals
"I got the fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!"

omg is this the latest trend among the religious cliques in school? haha, but yea from my personal experiences as a christian and as a non-christian, i have without a doubt seen that christians are taught at a young age to associate with other christians rather than non-christians. i have also found that teaching people this from a young age tends to give them a feeling of superiority towards those whom they are taught not to associate with.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

I agree with both points you make here. The message I receive from Christianity as a whole is as I stated above, negative. I also think that Christianity as a whole makes a negative impact on the world. However, not all Christians are alike, and yes most of them are probably fine people.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

Heh, I hear ya. It really is too bad that some people, like Whisp-daddy, have had bad experiences with Christians. Whisp is just a great example of someone who is very cool and nice, but would disagree with me on various religious discussions. The problem is when people, not us of course, let those differences stand in the way of friendship. Yeah, when I was in high school, alot of my friends drank and smoked and I didn't, but if I judged them, and hadn't associated with those people like a poster mentioned before, I would be missing out on alot of good experiences.

I just wish more people who claim to be Christians would get their act together and treat people better. Honestly, "people" are most of the problem when it comes to any organized religion. Any institution constructed by people will obviously have flaws, because no matter what you may believe, someone else will believe something just a little bit different. There is a difference between taking a stand on your beliefs, and making other people feel inferior because they don't share your beliefs. It's too bad that many people cannot differentiate between the two. I have never believed in telling other people how to live, or judging them for differences of opinion. Of course I have certain beliefs that I would never stray away from. But having an open mind when it comes to other people's beliefs and experiences can never be a bad thing.

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LS: TheMonarchy
The Bearded Hume Player/Coach for the Washington Generals
"I got the fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!"

Wow, this post is going to get nasty.

I'll be honest here, I hate god and christianity but I'm not bad. If you ever met me in person you would be my friend, I garuntee you would be I'm just a nice guy like that. With that said, this whole "no god in schools" and all that crap is just insane. Who cares? It has little to no effect on children imo and what effect it does have could only be positive. I agree with nick, the christian message is mostly that of a pure and loving nature so why try to keep it away from the young? The age you are in elementary school is when you are still very naive and will believe almost anything and by keeping religion away from kids makes it seem like it is a bad thing...

I hate people, there is no way to satisfy everyone so what?

I'm completely fine with that. Your distaste is totally understandable, especially if you've only seen the arrogance and ignorance of some would-be followers of the religion. People use religion to try and get their way all the time. Alot of people are generally manipulative, arrogant, and whole lot of other things by nature but these all come naturally to peoples actions and understandings. Christianity teaches the exact opposite to arrogance, pride (read:feeling superior), and manipulative individuals. These people do not follow religious doctrine, but instead seek their own self-interests. They are not acting out the faith of Christianity. So, next time some Jesus freak is trying to act almighty, simply dismiss (not slander) him. His comprehension of the faith he tries to understand is not nessecarily accurate. Hes ignorant, but his position of misunderstanding is also, well, understandable. I won't go on that train of thought now though. Now, Matti, on to your specfic concern. It is to my understanding that many people want the concept of "God" removed in schools for many reasons. The first is that there is supposed to be a seperation of church and state. If you need me to explain this point more I can PM you a quick history lesson on the past roles of religion in governing bodies. The most relevant examples to modern societies is the Middle East in terms of governing religious bodies. Anyhow, the second reason why people want to seperate bodies of education and religious bodies is that of moral, ethical, and educative concern. Whisp brought up before how schools still actually teach Creationism. That is an example of religious bodies in educative bodies. The more involvment of church in public education, the more messy the lesson plan can become. In High Schools for example, Bush specifically pushed bills and funding towards teaching of Abstinence instead of teaching kids safe sex. This is silly. If you can successfully teach monkies not to have sex, then, and only then would I place abstinence as a higher value than having safe sex. Safe sex is a much, much higher priority than hoping kids will avoid having sex altogether. Safe sex teaches proper condom use, educates kids on how people become pregnant (Bush's abstinence funding also went towards pamphlets describing how masturbating causes pregnancy), and lastly but most importantly safe sex is the frontline fighter on controlling communicable diseases in America and the world. Now, Matti, I hope you can see how religion in schools is a very complicated issue. There are many more sides to this issue that can be wrtten up in volumes, however, I'll have to end here or else I'll just go on a bush bashing tangent. Finally, your last sentence, about how "theres no way to satisfy everyone." This is true, however, you just have to stick with what you believe.

Anything else that needed to be covered?

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

I would agree with Cad in pretty much everything he said. I do not know if many Christians would agree with me or not, but I am actually in favor of the separation of church and state. The way I think about it, if some other religious group was the majority in the U.S. I wouldn't want them dictating to me how I should practice my faith.

That being said, I think it is important to differentiate between teaching religion in school, and using "religious" principles (from a wide variety of sources, not just the Bible) to teach about ethics and the like. The fact is that some parents are not responsible enough to teach their kids the difference between right and wrong. In a perfect world, that would not be the case, but the fact is that this happens frequently. Trust me, I have seen it. There are definite things that are right, and similarly, definite things that are wrong. If this was not the case, we would not have laws governing our lives. Just because many of these rights and wrongs can be found in religious documents of many kinds, does not necessarily mean a person teaching about them is teaching religion.

The line is drawn in teaching one religious dogma, or belief system, over another. Exposing people to different world religions is actually a large part of many of the social sciences.

As far as some of the other specific issues Cad discussed, I sort of agree about his stance on abstinence. As much as I wish it to be otherwise, no small number of underage people are having sex, more than likely unprotected sex. Although I believe that teaching abstinence as an option is a noble effort, it cannot in all practicality be taught to the exclusion of birth control and the like. That is just blinding your eyes to what is going on in the real world.

To touch on teaching evolution vs. creation science, I think that both ought to be taught as theories. I know some people will argue that evolution should be taught as fact, because scientists believe it is "proven" by science. However, as many scientists have admitted, there is no real way to prove that evolution is fact, or that creation science is fact. Both sides have their "evidence" and neither side will likely budge. A word on creation science: a good majority of the world believe that some higher power, whether it be God, Jehovah, Allah, what have you, created the world. To not acknowledge that this belief or theory exists, would seem to sponsor an idea foreign to a large portion of the population, discrediting what the vast majority of those in the major world religions believe. That is in essence creation science: that some higher being caused the earth, and stars and all that to come into being. It is not specific to any one religion, therefore does not fall under the realm of separation of church and state.

Heh, as for myself a Christian, obviously I believe that God created everything. I really do not care how he did it, whether by the Big Bang, by evolution, or any other method, I just believe that he did. I am sure of the fact that other people share this belief, and at the same time I know many people think that my views are naive and idiotic. That is the beauty of this free society we live in: you are free to have your opinions and beliefs and I am free to have mine. The moment that these freedoms to discuss opposing opinions do not exist, we will no longer truly be free.

Now will you all join me in singing "America the Beautiful"
Haha jk, just seemed an appropriate place for such a joke.

P.S. if Canadians wish to substitute the words of the "Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen" from Ren and Stimpy, its fine by me

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LS: TheMonarchy
The Bearded Hume Player/Coach for the Washington Generals
"I got the fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!"

^^^Yeah, I never defined Creationism, thanks for picking that up for me Orignal. Personally I believe in a higher, operative function like complex physical formulas that allow uncertainity (and therefore probability) to take place where humanity, or places like Earth, are encompassed by said formula. Technically physics could prove that all of our actions as human beings could be determined at the creation of the first star, however, I hate science and physics so my grasp on the area is somewhat limited. I just hope that in that "Prediction" forumla there would be uncertainities (so we could have free will, yay!). Basically imagine how the code in your computer works, and imagine an infinitly more complex version of that code definining our known exsistence. Anyhow I imagine God as a parental figure to the psycologies of most average Americans. The concept of religion, God, and Myth was created out of social nessecity. Moving on, I'm feel somewhat pushed to acknowledge that their must be some sort of higher form or creature (whether it be my 'magic forumla' or maybe even sentient?) that would support our exsistence in some way. Anyway I'm pushing into territories I haven't even fully fleshed out in my head yet. I'm just playing around for fun now. Go get high and read what I wrote, you'll have a good time, I promise.

Spongebob promotes good discussion.

Hmm... If someone mentions the matrix I'm going to cut them.

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

I gave up on reading all these posts, seeing as I'm not even supposed to be on the computer atm. o.o;;
First off, I am a Christian. I haven't been to church in a while since I moved back out to Colorado, but I still read my Bible and still act like I'm supposed to(most of the time anyway o.o;;) I think most of today's problems of public opinion are based on history, mainly the Catholic church. The reason people started coming over to America is the rules and restrictions that were placed upon us, and the Catholic church had as much power as the King. If you didn't agree with the State Church you could be killed, watch your family killed, be stuck in prison for life, etc. So people came over to the colonies trying to get away from that. People became over paranoid about any religion becoming as powerful in the United States. When the pope visited when Kennedy was president, everyone was paranoid about what would happen, since Kennedy was the first devote Catholic president. I don't remember the issue that the pope discussed, but Kennedy dissagreed with him, and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Now I've lost my train of thoguht, so I'm going to let it drop, I think I made somewhat of a point. (maybe)

Tithing, btw, was never meant to make people rich. You're supposed to tith to keep your church upkeep and help those less fortunate in the community. There wasn't social security and what not to help when this was started. The Church was expected to take care of those problems. Its sad to see something so simple and promising be turned into widespread money grubbing and bad press.