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What if the Bible is true?
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Author:  Orignal [ Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  What if the Bible is true?
Disclaimer: This is merely a continuation of a previous discussion. It is not an attempt to preach at anyone, or convert anyone. It is just a conversation.

At one point in time, Matti had asked a question about why Christians believe what they do. I was one of several who posted on that thread, and have since thought about how I would answer that very question. This is what I have come up with.

How many of us would sacrifice our lives for our friends? Many of us would. How many of us would sacrifice our lives for people we don’t even know? Most of us might hesitate here. What about people we don’t like, or our enemies? How many of us would sacrifice our lives for them? Probably not many.

What if the Bible is true? If the Bible is not true, then what is the worst possible result? Time and money might be wasted, but not many other negative outcomes. But what if it is true? If the Bible is true, then the following things are true as well. (for argument’s sake, assume it is)

1. God exists – He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (three big words meaning all powerful, all knowing, and always present)

2. God created people – with free will, the choice to love and follow Him, or not

3. God has perfect love and perfect justice – seemingly in conflict, He loves what He has created, but has unbreakable standards

4. No person is perfect – all people have done wrong, and therefore deserve punishment
*side note: people really hack me off when they act like they are better than other people just because they are a Christian; that’s like a person bragging they have $.05 to another person who has $.02, in front of a person who is a billionaire.

5. God’s perfect justice has to be satisfied – He couldn’t set rules and not follow them, it would go against his perfect nature

6. God’s perfect justice was tempered with His perfect love – this is where it gets good; in order to satisfy his perfect justice, someone had to pay for the offenses against him, in His perfect love, He chose to send His son Jesus to pay the price for all people in all time

To conclude, if the Bible is true, God loves all of us (what He created) so much that He allowed His son to pay for the crimes of us all, to satisfy the debt owed by each of us. So to answer the question, “Why do Christians believe what they do?” I say that I believe that the most powerful being in the universe cares enough about me to send his son to pay for all the things I have done wrong. Think about that for a second.
Author:  Ponuh [ Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't mind christianity, just like I don't mind Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Taoism, any of the larger religions. It's their leaders I strongly dislike.

Christians in the US need to stop trying to latch on to government. They've got this wierd idea that because "the majority of americans are christian" and "the nation was founded by christians" they can remix church and state. And it bothers me. Alot.

Ok that's way off track haha. Sorry
Author:  arlania [ Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think of myself as being a christian but not in the same sense as most I think. I believe in the bible but I also believe in some to most of what Hinduism,Buddhism, Taoism, and some ancient religions. As for Christians being too uptight about things I cant agree more. It's one thing to believe in trust in God but I doubt he wants everyone living in fear of him and what they do. Some people just need to live their lifes and decide what is right and wrong for them. As for Evolution VS God I believe that yes God did create humanity but that we have evolved.
Author:  Anthon [ Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
:roll:
Author:  Feep [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
(You believe God created humanity, but that we evolved? From what, humans to humans?)

Anyway, I'm Jewish. Jewish people rock. And I don't even have a large nose. I'm like an undercover Jew.
Author:  Ponuh [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Feep wrote:
(You believe God created humanity, but that we evolved? From what, humans to humans?)

Anyway, I'm Jewish. Jewish people rock. And I don't even have a large nose. I'm like an undercover Jew.


I think she's saying she thinks god created the universe and whatnot.

we can trace the big bang to like a trillionth of a second after but as I understand we can't figure out what the catalyst was. omfg ill just call it "god"
Author:  Feep [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
/agree Ponuh
Author:  ejoy [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
"we can trace the big bang to like a trillionth of a second"

Wait.... you can't honestly believe that to be fact......
Author:  Ponuh [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
ejoy wrote:
"we can trace the big bang to like a trillionth of a second"

Wait.... you can't honestly believe that to be fact......


present me with some counter evidence lol
Author:  Caduceus [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reminds me of that philosophy question: "If God is all powerful can he create a boulder he can't move?"

Logic really hurts God :\ If you look at God as an omniscient being-like figure that is.
Author:  Valenia [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Caduceus wrote:
Reminds me of that philosophy question: "If God is all powerful can he create a boulder he can't move?"


The real question is "Would he want to move the boulder?"
Author:  ejoy [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
It wouldn't be faith if he came and showed himself to us.

And seriously, if you think that science can prove the bing bang THEORY (hey that's why it's still a theory) to within fractions of seconds, you're nuts, and you have way too much faith in science. Do you really think it's that easy to prove something like that? Did you know that plate techtonics is still a theory? and basically everything else that we "know" about our universe is a theory? We don't know anything for sure because we can't possibly go out there and find out.

The fact that Gravity is even the governing force in the universe is in the process of being disproved right now. Velikovsky (he lived in Einsteins times) claimed that it was electromagnetism that goverened the movement of plants and galaxies and just now scientists are starting to beleive him.

To think that science has proved something so long ago and so trivial is absurd. They probably used carbon dating on a rock and made some calculation to extend it to the "beginning of time" and then said the big bang happened at X time in history. All calculations, all theories, all cannot be proved without a shadow of a doubt.

Also, assuming the big bang did happen, what caused it? The smaller bang? the bang right before that one? The stuff that just happened to be there?

I'm ranting, but just stuff to think about.
Author:  Arim [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
What if the bible is true? its somethign tha happened in the past if im not mistaken. its really another history book

if it wasn't true, im sure some people would be mad but then alot others would say th devil is trying to posion us w/e who knows

bible is a book, nothing more, people choose to live by it fine by me. just dont preach to me that i'm a sinner because i dont read it >.>
Author:  Ponuh [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Exactly. "Well I just KNOW it's there because my parents told me that I belonged to this faith."

facts prease. I'm impressed with how long most religions have stayed intact. I think it can be attributed to some very strong willed, and equally ignorant religious leaders hehe.
Author:  arlania [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Feep wrote:
(You believe God created humanity, but that we evolved? From what, humans to humans?)

Anyway, I'm Jewish. Jewish people rock. And I don't even have a large nose. I'm like an undercover Jew.



ummmm im saying that god created man but we have evolved as has everything. You evolve as you live and as you generations die and renew. Evolution is a common fact you can see it everywhere and I believe it is part of our freedom per say that God gave us. Humans dont need to evolve into pure energy or winged monsters for it to be called evolution >.>
Author:  Galindar [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why do jewish people have big noses anyways?

Oh ya, air is free.
Author:  Feep [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
You know, I don't really know why Jewish people have big noses. A mystery even deeper than that of our universes origins, perhaps.

Ejoy, the Big Bang happened. It cannot be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt; nothing can, as you said. I can't technically prove I was sitting in this chair a second before I wrote this, because hey, I'm not THERE. Could've been a glitch in my memory. But if you don't believe in plate tectonics, you're a freaking retard. I have seen and skimmed several doctoral dissertations of subjects such as "High Energy Fermeon Energization from 10^-9 to 10^-8 seconds after the Big Bang", and YES, they can go that far back. Just because you don't seem to know any methods beyond carbon dating doesn't mean it can't be done.

Einstein never said Gravity is the governing force in the universe. In fact, of the four major forces (Strong Force, Weak Force, Electromagnetism, and Gravity), gravity is by FAR the weakest of the four. His equations predicted time dilation, relativity, and the curvature of space time with regard to gravitational effects.

I happen to believe God created the Big Bang. But before you go mouthing off science, make sure you have a remote idea of what you're talking about first.

P.S. Yes, I'm a geek.
Author:  ejoy [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Feep wrote:
You know, I don't really know why Jewish people have big noses. A mystery even deeper than that of our universes origins, perhaps.

Ejoy, the Big Bang happened. It cannot be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt; nothing can, as you said. I can't technically prove I was sitting in this chair a second before I wrote this, because hey, I'm not THERE. Could've been a glitch in my memory. But if you don't believe in plate tectonics, you're a freaking retard. I have seen and skimmed several doctoral dissertations of subjects such as "High Energy Fermeon Energization from 10^-9 to 10^-8 seconds after the Big Bang", and YES, they can go that far back. Just because you don't seem to know any methods beyond carbon dating doesn't mean it can't be done.

Einstein never said Gravity is the governing force in the universe. In fact, of the four major forces (Strong Force, Weak Force, Electromagnetism, and Gravity), gravity is by FAR the weakest of the four. His equations predicted time dilation, relativity, and the curvature of space time with regard to gravitational effects.

I happen to believe God created the Big Bang. But before you go mouthing off science, make sure you have a remote idea of what you're talking about first.

P.S. Yes, I'm a geek.


Ok, well I think plate techtonics is a great theory, but that's all it is, a theory. We cannot see these plates. I think plate techtonics is a strong theory.

The Big Bang is a theory, you did not see it happen. Go ahead and explain to me in detail what "High Energy Fermeon Energization" is. And then tell me every other factor that could possibly go into measuring it. And after that relate it specifically to proving that an explosion mysteriously created everything in our entire universe. From the shoes on my feet to the distant gases in galaxies 100000000 light years away. I think the big bang is a weak theory. There are so many things that go into it.... it's just really stupid to think that we "have it down now." I've read all the calculations on universal expansion and einsteins constant etc. But it's all.... speculation.

I didn't say anything about Einstein, merely that Velikovsky lived during his time. Gravity as the main force of governing the universe is pretty universally accepted..... it's taught in elementary school, high school, and at universities. As to how Galaxies move they completely contribute it to gravity. The thing is, Galaxies didn't move the way their calculations said they would assuming it followed the same principles. They had to make something up called "Dark Matter" to attribute the extra gravity to. Dark matter is something you can't see, smell, hear, touch, or measure at all, but they think it's there. I call BS!

I see what you're saying, but I'm just playing the skeptic here. It just irks me when people adopt scientific theories such as the "big bang" as FACT. because it's not fact, it's far FROM fact.

I happen to believe in god as well. If the "Big bang" did happen, I would tend to believe that God created it.

And don't call me names.... that's childish. I think you're smart, but calling me dumb is gonna hurt your credibility if anything. I just wanna discuss things
:D Maybe I am wrong, but prove me wrong. I'm fine with being wrong.
Author:  Ponuh [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:33 am ]
Post subject: 
You've talked alot about how the big bang is "just a theory, remember that"

but do you have any evidence to back YOUR own beliefs?

Just blind faith?
Author:  Caduceus [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
And seriously, if you think that science can prove the bing bang THEORY (hey that's why it's still a theory)


Quote:
I think the big bang is a weak theory.


There's no such thing as 'weak' scientific theory.

My Astronomy teacher just told us earlier today about how people use "theory" in common language. Most people would say "its just a 'theory" or whatever when in fact a "theory" in scientific language is a hypothesis that has been rigorously tested, experimented, and accepted as general fact (but still disprovable if something comes along) by the scientific community. The only thing about theories is that theres no way of proving it absolutely or directly I think. But its like saying "The Big Bang theory is .0001% probably false and hey, thats why it's still a theory." Theories can be competed with, but do you know of an actual theory that competes with it? (And religious creation myths don't count, cause myths are exactly that, myth :x)
Same thing with the Theory of Evolution. We can't see it happen, but generally the minds of our time believe it to be 99.9% that its accurate, which is why Evolution seriously needs to be taught in every school in America. But thats a whole 'nother story.

Quote:
And seriously, if you think that science can prove the bing bang THEORY (hey that's why it's still a theory) to within fractions of seconds, you're nuts, and you have way too much faith in science. Do you really think it's that easy to prove something like that?


Ok, last one and then I'm going to bed, haha. The greatest minds of human history were figuring out how planets moves in gravitational pulls when most people still thought the earth was flat (Galileo). You really don't give science and the people behind it enough credit, because its definitly not easy to prove things like the big bang. We just have hundreds and hundreds of years of learning, observations, trials, experiments, and people pouring over this stuff 24/7. And yes, I have faith in science because the numbers show themselves to us, and the numbers do not lie because we can confirm the message they bring in the surroundings we see. I just wish I was good at math, lol. Sorry if I was blunt, just trying to pass off a little of what I learned listening to my awesome fucking astronomy teacher. I hope I did him justice.
Author:  ejoy [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Eewwww the theory of evolution. no thanks. I'm not a big fan of that one. But that could be due to lack of evidence on my part. My question would be "Give me some examples of things/animals that have made significant evolution in recorded history." I'm pretty sure the list would be very small, if there was a list at all.

I see what you're saying about thoeries, and I'm well aware of the scientific definition of "theory." Maybe it's my logic class that's making me ask so many questions. But to put the Big bang theory on the back of some mathematical equation seems absurd.

When I think of Astronomers that make predictions as to what galaxies are made of, or how they move, or why they move, or how they were created, I get really apprehensive. How could they POSSIBLY know what that shit is made of? They can make loose predictions based on some science. But all of this science is limited to what we've discovered on THIS earth. An imperfect earth full of imperfect predictions and imperfect data. While very creative and interesting, these theories are more of hypotheses. There's no way of proving it, ever. You talk about the Big Bang being a theory, and theory is used in the sense of "A hypothesis that has been tested and retested etc." But how do you test something like the big bang? Some mathematical equation that measures the energy level of something 100000000000 years old? While the equation may be good.... to project it over something that old or that far back there's just too much room for error. I don't feel the "tests" we have right now are sufficient enough to prove the big bang at all.

I was about to try and prove this Logically..... but yeah I won't do that. I feel it's pretty obvious my opinion isn't much reciprocated here lol.

Anyways... I have faith that God is present, I feel him, he helps me out. The thing I have a hard time with is thinking that the earth, people, animals, planets, galaxies, stars, love, anger, dogs, clouds, rain, everything, just happened. Everything just appeared one day. I feel that's as an absurd statement as anything.
Author:  Ponuh [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:47 am ]
Post subject: 
What? Evolution can't take place over 10,000 years. It takes millions of years. I think the example is that the world has been around total for a month, and human civilization has been around for like 2 seconds of that month, or something. Evolution takes time.

And your last comment is why Christianity CANNOT be allowed to govern scientific progress. Most Christians are simply content with not knowing how, so content it seems they assume everyone else is as well.


OK disclaimer. It's 3am. That might make no sense.
Author:  Reinheld [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Anyways... I have faith that God is present, I feel him, he helps me out. The thing I have a hard time with is thinking that the earth, people, animals, planets, galaxies, stars, love, anger, dogs, clouds, rain, everything, just happened. Everything just appeared one day. I feel that's as an absurd statement as anything.


Jesus got your back when you're playing hoops. And... isn't what you just said how it happens in the bible? One day everything just appeared? Haha.
Author:  Matti [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Jesus did exsist - That's proven.

As for the bible; did you ever play that telephone game in elementary school? You know, the one where you say something to someone and they pass it across the room. I think some information was lost and "fudged" to make the story work. Back in the Jesus days the people didn't have a great system (if any at all) to keep records. For the most part stories of past events were what became documented. Stories. You know, like the one where my Dad caught the 324 lbs. catfish.

I doubt anyone will ever be able to prove whether the bible is "true" or just how much of it is factual. But if you want to believe it's all fact then more power to you. Be happy and keep your faith in God. It doesn't effect me so why should I worry about what you believe? If it comes to my time and I end up in Hell then I guess I was wrong but whatever.

p.s. Purple monkey dishwasher
Author:  Reinheld [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Romans had records, as far as I can remember. That's one of the ways Jesus was proven to be real.
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