Naw no offense taken, I used your thread because it was nicely set up for a point counterpoint. :D

I've got a nice second set of responses.

1) True, gay marriage is not important to me. I treat it with the same philosophy that I treat homosexuality in general - it's your life do what you want. I neither care nor want to hear about it. The whole ammendment thing is a topic that Bush and I differ opinions on.

2) Bush may be richer, but his economic plans also happen to suit me more. Especially in the area of Estate taxes. My great aunt recently passed away and in the current system 70+% of her estate is being eaten up by taxes. My relatives who own their own businesses have to be very careful with planning their estates because if they don't do it right they won't be able to pass the business on to their children because the taxes on it would be too high. That's not right.

3) No Iraq isn't the only threat out there. However it was the most visable and targetable. Personally I think that we should've just finished the job during the first Gulf War and then we wouldn't be here. That imo is the biggest reason for the invasion - the son finishing daddy's crusade. Like I said, it needed to be done, but we could've done this a lot better.

I like a good political debate because it challenges both sides to justify their views. Bush may not be the sharpest knife in the set, but I will give him one thing. He has his stand on the issues out in the open and sticks by them. Good or bad, I respect that. In my case, his policies are overall beneficial to me so therefore he will get my vote.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

If you are going to have a political discussion on a message board, do the world a favor and learn proper grammar, or at least take a moment to capitalize and punctuate your sentences. Nothing is more annoying than attempting to read a post by someone who is apparently in 7th grade reading and writing.

If you don't have the time to fix your sentences, than most likely you haven't had enough intelligence to think the issues out to their logical conclusion anyways.

Princess, Did you vote for the Liberals (Scandals yet still popular), Conservatives (We aren't liberals!), or Bloc Quebeco'is (We're french)?

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Kailyn
- 75 WHM, 37 BLM, 37 THF, 33 BRD, 18 NIN, etc..

Myth i respect your vote.. It won't change mine though. Bush is using other issues to cover his problem with iraq blowing up in his face, not admitting he is wrong about how he took action on some things is pretty bad. In fact it makes us look like assholes world wide (bigger than what we already are). One thing i really hate about him is how he says you are taking things out of context i didn't say that, etc etc etc. Publicly and to the world he has been caught lieing. I refuse to have president who has shamed us. As i said before kerry is the lesser of 2 evils, if bush wants to stand behind his lies then fine, he's speeches are almost robotic, he's a terrible speaker and on top of it all he is just a puppet. His adminstration is the one really in charge of him, have you ever noticed that most of his adminstration are former Bush senior advisors. Doesn't it worry you that our vice president has close ties to his former oil company, isn't it weird the same company got contracts from the government to drill for oil in iraq. Isn;t it weird that gas prices are expected to lower awefully close to the september elections? I just can't mention all the shady things his adminstration is doing its just scary. I'm seriously thinking i should move to canada because its just that bad.

Oh yeah and its funny how everyone forgot:


Weapons of Mass Destructwha?

Iraq wasn't done due to the kindness of our hearts. Saddam was the target because Bush could not get to the real threat - terrorists. He was hoping for a Gulf War I style boost in popularity that his father had gotten. However, this war was not done with nearly the finesse of the first one. As a defense contractor, the fact that a could asshats with a few RPG's can take out a troop convoy is insulting. For god's sakes 1970 troop transports could withstand attacks better. I digress. This war should've never happened because if we did things right the first time he would've been out of power. We needed to do this just to clean up our own mess - not the reason we went in, but imo it's a valid one.

Bush's administration is by no means a collection of saints. But really, this type of crap has been going on for decades. Is it right and do I approve? No. Every single presidential administration has had it's share of naughty things going on (Iran/Contra, Watergate, Questionable Foreign donations). Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if WMD turn up right before the election.

I'm glad to see the amount of informed opinions here (even if they do not match my own). And being the minority opinion here I'm also very happy to see that I don't need to pull my asbestos suit out of the closet :D

I think we've all presented our sides so I'll just leave it at that. See (and /poke) ya'll in game.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

That's not necessarily true.


"Imagine a country where the government spends nearly as much money on unproven, abstinence-only preaching as it does family planning health care?

Imagine a country where the government’s most important public health organizations censor their own websites under pressure from the Bush Administration?

Imagine a country where 87 percent of counties have no abortion provider?

Imagine a country where the attorney general subpoenas women’s private medical records?

Imagine a country where the President appoints people to the FDA’s health advisory committees because of their right wing ideology not their scientific expertise— people who don’t think even married couples should use birth control ?

In George W. Bush’s America, you don’t have to imagine these scenarios." - Gloria Feldt

Not only this, but George Bush but Bush’s first executive order back was to reinstate the Global Gag Rule on international family planning.

Also, the next president will be able to appoint a couple of supreme court judges, and Bush would probably, almost definately, appoint pro-life judges. There are a lot of things that Bush has the power to do that will effect womens' reproductive freedoms.

Anyways, that was a bit long of a rant, but its something I really believe in.

Fahrenheit 9/11, go see it.
You hate Bush, yet not sure of your reason? Fahrenheit 9/11.
Think John Kerry is an ass, and should not be elected cause he changes his idea? Fahrenheit 9/11 (Bush and his whole staff did the same thing.)

I highly encourage that you see this movie, you will see Bush and the war in Iraq in a completely new light.

But when you go, go with an open mind. I was in favor for the war in Iraq when it began, now i feel ashamed that i ever did. If you find what Michael Moore has to say offensive or even wrong, then please by all means share his mistakes.

What princess mentioned was many of the reasons why i think bush was a terrible choice as a president to begin with. Plain and simple we just can't have a president that looks to the bible to make his decisions on a country, nor depend totally on his greedy aids

lol thats because he's not heres a not so well known fact of the day : kerry's wife is the heir the hienzt compay fortune (u know the people who make katchup and steak sauce) anyway and from what i hear she's been takeing some of the money and donateing it to her husbands campaign

Moral is : if u dont like kerry stop buying heintz, and kerry's prolly richer then all of us.. lol

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Aldy™
Kicker of Ass™

We should just elect satan...

...the one from south park, not the one everyone portrays him to be...

We'd at least know what we expect from him.

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-Formerly Movien, greatest Beastmaster evah

Why would we reelect a man that took us to war based on a lie?

Princess, I really wouldn't mind Bush putting in Pro-Life justices, I'm Pro-Life (debate for a different thread). Like I said, as a conservative he's not the choice I'd have for representing us but I do agree with more of his policies than Kerry's. Like I've said before Iraq was the right thing for the wrong reason. We have suffered way too many casualities. However, I do hope this brings some good as it sheds light on how we need to adapt our military better to support our troops. This already happened with the cancellation of the Comanche project I was working on. We have seen that the threat has changed and our military must as well (less low observability and more survivability). Once again I digress, I'll be the first to admit that he should not have rode the 9-11 emotion to get us into this. We needed to do this, but he needed to give us a legit reason to. However, I do not believe that Kerry has the political backbone to do what must be done to leave the area without unstabling it.

As far as Bush making policy on what he believes, I sure as hell hope he does. Any president, whether liberal or conservation should make policies based on what they believe. That's the way the system works. If America does not share his opinions he'll be voted out.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

ok you got me started on something else. Myth are you a male. I'm a male myself. I don't think i have the right to say if a woman should abort or a keep the child. It is a womans right. Nothing that religion should touch...
Speaking about making decisions on beliefs, a president who believes in the end of days, shouldn't be lifting environmental protections. But thats okay because he is doing it on beliefs.... Many other religions exist. And alot of other countries base there laws on religion.. its a sad thing. In some countries women are second class citizens. But thankfully we have a president that just wants to take a away a womans right to choose -_-

This thread has nothing to do with voting and everything to do with bashing the opposition candidate. I find it incredibly sad that our politicians have dropped to the level where slinging mud is a matter of fact rather than a possibility in an election, but when our citizens have reached the point where they are slinging mud of their own, I find it to be an incredibly sad state of affairs. That foreign nationals argue for or against our candidates in an attempt to influence our elections really tends to piss me off, but I find that those attempts more often backfire than succeed.

If your only deterministic factor for who you vote for is that you hate the other guy, then I suggest you examine history a little bit and see where this type of political stupidity can get you. I suggest you start with 1930's Germany as a good refresher course on what exactly hate based voting can achieve. I am not suggesting that either candidate is Hitler, I am merely reminding you that voting "against" someone rather than voting "for" someone can often give you some quite unexpected results.

If you don't like one candidate, that's fine. Research the other available candidates for the position and vote for the one that best fits your viewpoint. Leave the mud slinging to the politicians, the PACs, and the 527's. I assure you, they are much more experienced in that field than most will ever hope to be in their lifetime. Personally I find it sad that people don't consider voting for 3rd party groups that are more representative of their views because of the fear of "losing" their vote. If the people who shared that view actually voted for them, they would have a voice to break the two party system.

This current thread is about voting. If you wish to rehash the finer points of the most recent '527' commercial you saw, feel free to start a mudslinging thread.

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Kailyn
- 75 WHM, 37 BLM, 37 THF, 33 BRD, 18 NIN, etc..

Yes I am male. My stance on abortion stems from when I believe that the unborn child becomes a separate life. I believe that as soon as the egg is fertalized and the genetic information becomes different from the mother that it is a new life. Once that life comes into existance no one has the right to end it. Now I do believe that if the woman was raped or her life is in danger that abortion can be considered a viable option. Other than that, she choose to have sex and therefore she gets to live with the result. Mind you the man also has to live with the result to as dead-beat dads are one of the lowest forms of life.

Now, if you believe that life begins at a different stage then that's a different issue. I would like to here when you guys think that the baby becomes his/her own individual as well as your stance on late term and partial birth abortions.

Edit: Kailyn, if you're ever in the Philly area look me up and I'll buy you a beer/drink :D

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

It doesn't matter what we as males think. I'm sadly the product of a dead beat dad... My mother had a choice... I respect her choice she gave me the chance to live. But to be honest... if she didn't decide to keep me would i have blamed her... no i wouldn't because i truly believe its a womans choice. Now i must admit my upbringing wasn't all that great. I've gone thru alot of things. But i can imagine things could have been worst, and if a woman knew that they couldn't properly take care of a child why should she be forced to bring into a world to suffer. As harse as this sounds my sister has 4 kids she cannot provide for them and they constantly suffer, if it wasnt for smart little mikey things would have been really bad for this family. I don't know myth this is a very touchy subject that i bet will be debated for a very very long time. What are your thoughts are stem cell research lol?

Perfect timing... I've been off work for the past couple of days and haven't read the posts, but I was going to bring up stem cell research.

This is a major factor in my votiong decision. The fact that Bush wants to ban stem cell research makes me sick. Yes, I understand that he's pro-life (and this my sound harsh), but I believe that something is not alive until it has a heartbeat (which, for a fetus is about 6-8 weeks into pregnancy). Embryonic cells are acquired during the first few days to a week after fertilization.

Stem cells have amazing potential for medical beakthroughs. Embryonic stem cells are the most promising. This is because once a cell develops its specific function (cells in your heart, cells in your kidneys, etc), that function can't be changed. Embryonic cells have the potential to be developed into any kind of cell. Others do not because they're at a later developmental stage.

Stem cells could possibly be a treatment for Parkinsons, paralysis, diabetes, and even HIV/AIDS. Bush is pro-life, but banning stem cell research could be a death sentence for many....




P.S.- If stem cell research should be banned, in vitro fertilization should as well. When a woman is implanted with many fertilized eggs, if more than one survives, she has the option to have the others removed. They are basically thrown out. How is this any better than stem cell research or abortion?

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Im not from the US but putting a ban on Stem Cell research is just down right wrong.

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COBRA KAI DOJO NEVER DIES
RIP Shiloh

Well. Here's where all the opinions are going to vary, it starts with the question of "When does life actually begin?" Personally, I agree with Mythrandir. My wife and I were trying to have a child, and from then on it was our son, not any kind of added appendix of her body. Regardless whether he had a heartbeat, he was my son, and was "part of the family."

I'm not a religious person, by any means, in terms of going to church, etc. so we'll leave that part out of the argument--I'm not sure that even should have a place in this discussion. After all, I could go to church with the same 15+ people every Sunday and/or Wednesday, and we could all have differing opinions on this subject.

Back to the topic at hand, I do believe abortion can be an option, as said before, in the case of a rape victim or the possibility of harm or death to the mother. Our pregnancy was a difficult one, and we did have problems, up to thinking the baby would have to be delivered more than a month pre-term due to complications with the pregnancy. I would have been crushed at losing my son, but if his delivery meant my wife might die, I don't think I could go through with it.

That, however, is different than some 16 year old girl going out and partying, having a good time, and .. "Oops, I missed my period this month... and the test is positive." Sorry. Stupid mistake, learn from it. I don't want to sound like an ass, but really.... You can't tell me you didn't know it would happen. If you aren't willing to deal with the possibility of having a child, why are you going through the process of creation of said child? That's stupid. And you're going to kill that child, who's now probably near the 6-8 weeks when it acquires it's heartbeat because said teenager is too stupid to even take the test or let anyone know until the second month (in a lot of cases).

I don't know a LOT about the stem cell research, so I won't pretend to know. But from Milamber's post, I'd imagine most of the abortions are long after the first couple weeks of fertilization. And most of these are just to kill the child because you can't handle the consequences of your actions. I just don't think that's a solve-everything, remove-all-guilt-and-responsibility kind of thing. In a bad situation, rape--the pregnancy not being your fault, nor a result of your intentions--or a situation where you or the baby can't live due to some complication, ok, I can see that being reasonable. But otherwise, you had sex, you got pregnant, and you can't deal with your situation, so you find the easy way out....

Just like you can't run from your situation if you accidentally shot someone--you can't put the bullet back in the gun and pretend it never happened--why should you not have to deal with the consequences?


Side note: I know about dead-beat fathers. I have a step-daughter, from my wife's first marriage. We have a hard time financially due to child care issues, but if he would pay his portion of child support like he's supposed to, we'd be fine. Nice situation, huh?

(I don't know how bad this post really is, I'm at work and got interrupted 10-20 times in the process of typing... But the sum of things, I agree with Mythrandir so far on pretty much all points...)

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46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

laguna its a touchy subject. My sister was a fool for having so many kids. She
had them while she was a teenager. She did the whole i did a mistake and i will pay for it. But sadly she did it 4 times. I still believe a woman has a right to choose even if i don't agree with it. I honestly don't like abortion its a sad and disqusting thing. If people were responsible and abortion was only used for extreme cases then there wouldn't be a debate. I not sure how much more i can explain this. We honestly need a womans point of view on these issues. I've noticed that mostly me and myth and laguna have been discussing our thoughts i want to hear princesses thoughts on this.
Stem cell research can save many lives, but in turn it destroys another. One life can save thousands.
Something someone told me once before, The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

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Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

I do not see a problem with stem cell research. Abortion is legal and that isn't going to change any time soon. I'd rather that at least some good come from it.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

Here again, the opinion of a man, but I think it would be pretty hard on the woman as well. After all, since the time the egg attaches to the uterus, it starts some different hormones through the body. That alone is bad enough (from experience, lol women on hormones like that are difficult at best)... But the abortion would probably screw up the hormones pretty bad. I'd imagine it wouldn't be easy to deal with, a negative aspect of the abortion.

I guess if nothing else, you could always put the child up for adoption if you can't take care of it. It's hard on the children and mother alike, but it does prevent the abortion from being a necessity.

As far as the stem cell research goes, it's really difficult. With it taking several lives to save numerous more, it wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily, but still a life taken none the less. And it's not a certainty that it will end up being the cure for anything, you don't know. And who knows if anything will ever be cured? After all, those people with HIV/AIDS spend a ton every year in medicine to help them. I'd be a little worried that the people profiting off those people would really want to find a cure for the diseases. After all, that's a one-time fee for a cure vs. the possibility of several years of numerous numerous medicines....

This is America, after all. I think you said it yourself--the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer.

Touchy situation to say the least....

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46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

Just to clear some confusion (my own or anyone else's)...

Embryonic stem cell research is not done on an aborted fetus. It's done in a laboratory in a petri dish. People can donate eggs and sperm. Fertilization takes place in a dish. After four to five days, embryonic stem cells are removed and placed in a culture dish. The cells are cultured, and divide and spread to cover the dish. Once the dish is full, some cells are removed and placed into another dish and replication continues. This can continue for months. These cells, when properly manipulated (or sometimes by pure accident) can form muscle cells, nerve cells, etc. There is never a pregnancy or a physical abortion.

The controversey is over whether or not we should create a blastocyst (embryo that embryonic stem cells are taken from), and then destroy it.

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I am a female, I do believe aborption is women's choice. After all, we are the ones who has to carry that ball for 9 months. We are the ones have to deal with body shape change, getting fat, and all that. If today a girl can't afford to have a baby, can't afford to take care of him/her. Then she does not deserve to have it.

It is easier to say than done about adoption. Spend 9 months to carry something in your body then give him/her away because you can't support him/her? I don't think so.

Edit: I've yet to read the details about stem cell research on where the cell came from, above post provided some good info so changed my comment on that.

--> -->

Understood... that clears up some of the confusion on my part...

Two completely separate issues. Well, I have no problem with stem cell research... but I'm still not sure the companies out there marketting the resulting products would make cures as opposed to saying forget it and making money off the millions of other drugs people take to make their lives as good as possible while it lasts.

I know there are good-hearted people out there... I just don't trust everyone to have a kind heart and actually look out for curing the people as opposed to making money. That's another issue altogether though.

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46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)