I agree. Putting your child up for adoption isn't easy. I know I couldn't do it. But it does preserve life...
I'm not sure I agree with the second part of that though, that if the woman is too young to raise the child she should just abort the pregnancy. I, personally, don't think they should be out getting pregnant or even having sex unless they're willing to accept the possibility of having a little one running around in 9 months. After all, birth control isn't 100% on prevention.

It's different if someone gets raped, they couldn't control getting pregnant from that. But otherwise, if you can't support the child, you shouldn't be creating it.

I'm not saying I wish a miserable life upon the child, but I don't agree with people going out, having sex, and getting pregnant. And then they think that they can just escape from the reality of their situation by having an abortion, and they can go back to what they had been doing before. Another couple months, they may end up back at the clinic. That's wrong, we shouldn't support that by aborting the woman's pregnancy every other month.

It would just be too hard to restrict abortions to special cases like that, too hard to prove them. Things probably won't change to restrict stuff like that. So it goes....

_________________
46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

wow that was a lot of reading. Mythrandir is my boyfriend and suggested I read this thread because for once, it was a debate without personal insults and people resorting to the ever famous 'you're dumb and I'm better than you' comments.' he was quite right, it is very refreshing.

so any how, my views, both bush and kerry are morons, but I have to agree with Myth and the few others, Kerry is scarier than Bush. Kerry goes with whatever he thinks will get him more money, and more votes, rather than actually taking a stand for what HE beleives in, and gathering a vote for that purpose. Bush is a moron but at least he stands for something. I agree with some of his policies, but like most have said here he has his flaws. Personally I wish there were other candidates, and the closer to the election when I do my research perhaps I will find an independant candidate that I think my vote will better serve for. even if the person doesn't get elected, its still my vote to do with as I please.

On the abortion issue, every person does have the right to choose. That being said, the female AND male who decided to have sex knew damn well the consequences of having sex. If you cant' handle the responsibilities/consequences of your actoins, THEN DON"T DO IT. I agree that a human life begins the moment the egg is fertilized and the DNA becomes different than the mothers. I also agree with that in cases of rape or danger to the mothers life early on termination should be an option. The woman in rape did not CHOOSE to have sex, and therefor should not be forced to live with the consequences of that action. People have long used the argument that its a womans body so therefor she should be able to decide what to do with it-she carries it for 9 months, deals w/ the 'side effects (getting heavier, the stress of labor etc etc) but its not like its a new thing that pregnancy comes from sex. People need to be heald more accountable for their actions in society. Convenience should never ever be valued higher than a human life.

Also, something else I think is rather odd is that you say its a persons right to choose. Well what about those times when the man wants to keep the baby, but the woman doesn't-she can have an abortion. And what about the times that are reversed, the man still has to pay child support doesn't he? That doesn't make much sense to me, why isn't the man given a choice in this matter if the woman is? After all the person is half him. Don't get me wrong though, the man should still have to pay child support whether he wants it or not-thats his consequence for having sex.

For the stem cell research project-you can do exactly the same thing w/ a live birth and the donation of the embryonic stem cells from the umbilical cord. I think Bush needed to take a lot more time, and have better advisors when he made the decision to across the board ban all of the research. I agree w/ the decision to ban the research that was being doen from its current form-the joining of an egg and sperm, creating a life for the soul purpose of destroying it, when there is a very simple and probably far less expensive way to obtain the cells.


all in all, abortion, gay marriages and other personal issues, should never be something that a president is voted for or not. Supreme court justices personal opinions should never EVER come into play-their job is to uphold the laws not their conscience.

Very well said, in my opinion....
I never particularly thought of abortion in terms of the woman wanting to and the man wanting to keep the child. It doesn't happen too often that people hear about. Mostly, it's all about whether the woman has the right to choose.

As far as the stem cell research, I didn't think a thing about it, but I believe I'd heard about the use of the umbilical cord for that. That's probably the best way of getting the cells. I could agree with that, easily. I think that would solve pretty much everyone's problems with it. After all, you aren't taking a life, rather promoting it (to an extent). The umbilical cord really is just trashed once it's clamped, cut, and the afterbirth is out. Nasty stuff, but maybe it could be useful. I know I would have discussed donation with my wife, especially since I'm sure they wouldn't pass up or make you pay to donate that. I really expect my wife would have been more than happy to donate the umbilical for that too.

Anyway, I think if the only way they took the cells for that research was the donation of umbilical cords, that would be accepted a lot more widely. How can you argue doing research on something that's going to be thrown into a dumpster anyway?

_________________
46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

Does everyone on this board think that the sole purpose of sex is for procreation? I mean, I understand that with sex some responsibility, but I don't think the arguement "don't have sex unless you want/can deal with a baby" is a fair one.

Anybody who is pro-choice probably has a similar philosophy as I do: ideally, abortions would be free, legal, and RARE. It is never an ideal situation. But maybe the Bush administration could try to create an environment that would help to curb the amount of abortions that occur.

That might include:
-covering the pill under health insurence - only 30% of plans currently cover the pill
-put some money into family planning and sex education programs. Studies have shown that areas with comprehensive sexual education programs have fewer incidents of teenage pregnancy
-allowing the morning after pill to be available over the counter. The morning after pill is not the abortion pill (it won't induce abortion if you are already pregnant). Currently this pill is only available with a doctors perscription. The pill is only effective within the first 72 hours or so, making it hard for women to get the perscription and the pill in time for it to be effective. Studies have estimated that if the morning after pill was available over the counter it could prevent upwards of 700 000 abortions a year

So, I don't think it is enough to say, "I don't agree with abortion" because of religious or emotional thinking. And I think it is ignorent to imply, or out right say, that abortion is the result of promiscous women that had sex without willing to deal with the consequences. Instead, people should be trying to think of ways to deal with the issue that are actually helpful.

And finally, why is abortion okay in the case of rape? Is that fetus any less deserving of life than one that is the result of consentual sex? Is it okay to punish a fetus for the crimes of its father. Obviously being pro-choice, I would fully support a woman if she chose an abortion under these circumstances. But I don't know how pro-lifers justify it.

Actually the purpose of sex IS to have a baby. Only 2 species have sex for pleasure - mankind and dolphins. Sex is not some inalienable right that everyone has. If it was the "Right to Mad Tang" would be in the Bill of Rights. Sex is a privaledge that comes with a responsability. If you are not willing/able to live up to the responsability then don't have sex. I knew that I could not support a baby when I was in high school so I was not sexually active. Did that totally suck ass? Sure it did, but I was not going to do something that I could not take responsibility for.

Pro-life supporters do not justify an abortion after rape. We conceed it. Personally I know that Nickg and I believe that the baby has a right to be born. However, society is a give-and-take beast so we must be willing to accomodate opposing views.

No one here is saying that every woman who gets an abortion is a huge slut. What we are saying is that a vast majority of them are because someone is not willing to take responsibility for their actions - not for medical/violation reasons. That's a big difference. I am still curious to when to you think that the fetus becomes a separate life.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

The only thing I can say for rape:
- The father WON'T be able to help raise the child. He won't be paying child support, because they won't know who the father is, or he will be on the run from authorities, or in jail. That's not a particularly healthy upbringing for the child.
- Also, the child, unfortunately, becomes a permanent reminder to the mother of the rape. That could obviously have lasting mental issues for the woman.

I'm not Justifying it, I'm just not sure I'd want to live with the pain that would bring to raise a child of rape. To bring it a little closer to home, I was actually dating someone that left me because someone raped her. She didn't even tell me about it until several months after she left me that that was the real reason why. So I know it can be a horrible thing to go through, and to have a lasting reminder, I can understand wanting to not carry a child created in that way.

Still, it is a life, and I'm not trying to justify abortion in itself, or the taking of the life. But I don't expect them to just live with that though. After all, it wasn't their choice....

_________________
46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

As to the question as to when the fetus becomes a "seperate life," I think that it is too hard a question to answer. Nobody will ever agree on the definition, so it is sort of a moot point.

This might be helpful for those inquiring as to when a fetus is a life. I read this a while ago and I found it very interesting. I just thought that maybe it would be a good thing to post here.





"Life begins at conception. At that moment a new human being with a unique genetic blueprint has come into existence."


1) There is no scientific consensus as to when human life begins, a point made by such institutions as the National Academy of Sciences and the American Medical Association.1 These scientists say that the point at which a new person comes into existence cannot be scientifically discovered; it is a matter of philosophic opinion or religious belief, not scientific fact. It requires a judgment of what we consider a human being to be. For instance, does a human being consist of genetic information, or a disembodied soul, or a consciousness in a body? Or is it a separate, social being who has been born?

2) Biologists tell us that all life comes from pre-existing life. In other words, life does not begin, it is transmitted. The human egg and sperm are both living, human cells. At conception, two previously existing living things come together to form another living thing. Therefore, fertilization is not the beginning of human life, but is a significant step in its continuity.2

3) There is no "moment of conception"; conception is not a momentary event but a multi-step process which happens over a 24 hour period.3 Up to two weeks later, a twin zygote can form by breaking away from the first. Pregnancy is not considered to begin until the fertilized egg implants in the woman's uterus, approximately two weeks after fertilization.4

4) At least two-thirds of all human conceptions are spontaneously aborted by nature.2,5 In other words, most "unique genetic blueprints" stop developing naturally, and no one seems to consider these to be "human beings".

5) As the discussion document of the Canadian Medical Association's Committee on Ethics points out, the claim that a human being exists at conception equates a potential with an actual: it assumes that because a fertilized egg has the biological potential to develop into a human being, it is one already.6 This is like saying that an acorn is the same as an oak tree or a fertilized hen's egg is the same as a chicken.7 This ignores the very fundamental difference between the present material natures of the two. The difference between the potential of an early pregnancy and an actual person was traditionally recognized by the Judaeo-Christian Islamic religions.6

6) Only genetic individuality - a set of inherited tendencies or predispositions - is present at conception.4 (Genetic individuality is a characteristic not only of humans but of all living things.) A human genotype is not the same as a person; tumours that grow in the human body carry as "unique" a "genetic blueprint" as does a new conception.2

7) There does not seem to be any "blueprint" for the development of the embryo. The fertilized egg may follow many different paths; each step in its development depends upon the pattern of cells and molecules just reached in the preceding step. Identical twins, for instance, grow from the same egg, have exactly the same DNA and develop in the same womb, yet they are different - they even have different fingerprints. In rare instances a second or third embryo will start to develop one body part but not others, and end up as a cyst with remnants of body parts, such as teeth, bones or other organs.8 The fertilized egg is clearly not a prepackaged human being.9

According to embryologist Clifford Grobstein, there are five other essential aspects of individuality still to come after fertilization: developmental, functional, behavioural, psychic and social. This means that full individuality emerges in stages over time.4

9) The human brain is considered central to what it means to be human and alive. Scientists state that the nature of our cerebral cortex, or the thinking portion of our brain, is what makes human beings different from other animals.2

The Canadian Medical Association's Committee on Ethics,6 as well as many international scientists and theologians,2 have identified the birth of fetal 'brain life' as the beginning of the life of a new human person. Fetal brain life has been defined as the capacity of the cerebral cortex "to begin to develop consciousness, self-awareness, and other generally recognized cerebral functions as a consequence of the formation of nerve cell circuits".10 This process is usually defined as occurring sometime after the 24-26th week of pregnancy,2,4,10 although the Canadian Medical Association's discussion paper sets a more conservative date of 20 weeks.6

Also, 23-24 weeks is about the same stage at which a fetus may potentially survive outside the womb if born prematurely.11,12 Scientists say that the threshold of survivability has stabilized and will not change in the foreseeable future (despite a massive increase in medical capability), due to the timetable of fetal development.12

10) The transition of childbirth is different in quality from previous stages of development. The fetus leaves the woman's body in a multi-stage process, enters the world, breathes for the first time, uses new senses and organs, and exists independent of its mother. When a baby is born its voice is heard, and within hours of being born there is a necessity to communicate.

Birth marks a critical point in the biography of an individual; it is the moment of social membership into the family, community, culture, and, ultimately, history. Professor Thelma McCormack points out that the difference between "unborn" and born is not a slight developmental change, but an enormous existential one. This is true for both infant and mother. "Life truly begins."13

11) Even if it could be shown that human life begins at conception, that finding would not entail the further moral judgment that life at that stage ethically merits full protection. When human life begins and when human life, once begun, merits or requires full respect are two different questions.

http://www.caral.ca/facts/responses.php

Hot shit finally i got some women backing me lol. I need to say this ,I respect everyone thoughts on these matters. And of course my thoughts are my own and i wouldn't want to force them on others. I do agree that one must accept responsiblity for ones actions. But mistakes happen. ANyway let me shut up before i go on and on and on and on lol. I'm glad peejo and princess back me woot woot

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Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

I'm always happy to back up a strong,confident, black, SASSY woman. Lol, I love your pic.

OMG princess just added icing to the cake
Yarr i want my title to be strong confident sassy black woman

_________________
Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

LMAO LOLOL WOOT I"M HAPPY

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Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

Ok, some people made the point that embryonic stem cells could be taken from an umbilical cord. That is not true. Cells taken from an umbilical are not embryonic. Embryonic stem cells can only come from an embryo.
Umbilical stem cells also cannot be used in exactly the same way as embryonic cells either. Although they are very useful, they already have a specific function, and therefore the cells they could not be manipulated into as many other types of cells. The reason embryonic stem cells are so valuable is because they still have the ability to be transformed into just about any other type of cell that there is. Umbilical cells simply can't do this because they've already been developed into a more specialized cell. Stem cell research would be drastically more limited if only umbilical stem cells were used.

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so basically requiring to have one life end to save one or more.

_________________
Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

Forgot to add this earlier...

I understand and agree that every person should take responsibility for their actions, but, really, a lot of children and teenagers are not taught responsibility. Not every child (we'll say 16 and under) can fully comprehend the enormous weight of their actions. They don't really think to themselves, "If I have sex, I'm going to get pregnant." Many times this is because of lack of proper parenting or education. Many people don't have the emotional support to make proper judgements. And many female children/teens look to males to find love/acceptance that is missing in other areas of their lives. Often times, the result of this is pregnancy. I believe that many teen pregnancies are not 100% the teens fault. If they had the support from their families, I don't think they would be having sex.

You have to think about why people this young are having sex in the first place. Some children are doomed from the beginning because they were born into a horrible family situation. Lack of money, missing parents, drug/alcohol addiction, physical/emotional abuse. Children who are brought up in these environments really aren't in the best position to make the right decisions because they are never taught right/wrong and good/bad. This may be because his/her mother decided not to have an abortion. I simply could not tell a child who lived the first 16 years of his/her life in that condition that they simply have to accept the responsibility of a child because they had sex. Maybe they were looking for love that everyone needs.

If we're going to hold children accountable, we need to do our part also, and make sure they know what the right decisions are. You can't expect someone to know something without them being taught.

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I might buy that if the sex->pregnacy correlation was harder to figure out. I'd challenge you to show me one teenager who doesn't know that sex can lead to pregancy. I'm not talking about the "It can't happen to me" thing, I'm talking about truly not knowing that if you have sex you can get pregnant.

You're walking a dangerous slope when you start removing responsibility because of someone's upbringing. Once you start, where do you stop? Does it them become ok for someone who's family is going hungry to hold up a convienence store? Society is based on rules, and in order to function those rules have to be followed (the previous example is based on the premise that abortion should not occur. Legally standing there is not a correlation as one activity is legal while the other is not). Look how badly our society has gone down the shitter with this PC crap and people starting to make exceptions "because they didn't know any better." No matter how good your intentions, you will always do more harm than good taking this approach. I also disagree with this because I'm a die hard advocate of equality. You can not have equality if different people are playing by different rules.

Edit: I whole-heartedly agree that parents need to start stepping up more.

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Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

That's not what I mean. Everyone knows if you have sex, you can get pregnant. You may not know what I mean because you're not female, but I'll try to explain it as best I can.

When a female child is abused by her father (physically, emotionally), there are obvious detrimental effects. Not only does she not have a positive malte role model, she doesn't have the love of a father. When young girls go out and have sex, they aren't necessarily doing it for pleasure. There are underlying psychological issues. They are trying to find a male to love them and accept them. It's a woman's nature to need some type of male companionship. Sadly, some female children can depend on their fathers for it. To replace that missing love, they have sex because they think, "he's having sex with me... he must like me." And we all know that's not really the case.

What I'm saying is that we need to teach children, at least females, sex doesn't equal love. And if we could really get that message through to them, I would bet money that the teen pregnancy rate drops considerably.

If you still don't understand what I'm talking about, visit this website http://www.monitor.net/monitor/free2/teendepress.html

It's a hard thing to understand unless you've felt lonely and depressed before. Feeling like nobody in the world loves or cares about you is an unbelievably, overwhelming and crushing emotion.

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We definately need to step up education on this. Unfortunately the "radical" aspect of conservatives are the most responsable for holding this back. The whole point of my post was that yes, there is an underlying reason for why these girls are going out and having sex. That said, when you come from the belief that the fetus is a separate life, that is still not a justification for taking that life. I agree that we need to step up the education in our schools on this topic and that it will help the problem.

_________________

Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

I don't know if you read my earlier post, but it offered three ideas that could help reduce the need for abortions. The whole point of that post was to encourage people to think of solutions rather than just taking a 'moral' stand.

I can't say as those are bad ideas, necessarily. Certainly I agree with #2, allowing for more education--and not just for the children, but for the parents, as well, on how to talk to their children about such and explaining to them the consequences of their actions.

As far as #1 goes, I don't know about the pills or whatever, but the birth control my wife and I use is covered under insurance and ends up costing $20 every month for it. Not too bad. (If you must know more, PM me.)

As far as #3, I'm not sure. I guess making it OTC wouldn't hurt for prevention. But condoms and other methods of birth control are already OTC and require no perscription. One could always have some method available to themselves, especially if you know you're going to be sexually active. Most people don't just make the sudden, spur of the moment decision to go get drunk and have sex with someone. Not to say I'm against making birth control easy to get, just saying that not a lot of people couldn't have time to get a perscription for birth control before it's needed.

Education is the main thing though. The parents need to raise their children better, that would solve the teen pregnancy.

On the other hand, I'd imagine a large portion of abortions were adults.... Not sure what could prevent that, other than use of birth control.... *shrugs*

_________________
46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

Emergency contraception is for those times when the condom breaks, or you got drunk and had unprotected sex. It is a last resort form of contraception and should never be used as anything but that. Like I said in the earlier post, if it were available OTC, it could prevent over 700 000 abortions each year.

I see the point, and I would agree there should be no reason it should be extremely hard to get. I don't really even worry myself over it--I have no need for "emergency contraception." There are some nice forms of birth control out there, like the pill, that wouldn't really require something to fall back on in case of emergency.

Here again, I don't disagree with your point about it being easier to get.

_________________
46whm / 23blm - 33brd / whm - Rank 5, San d'Oria - 61.3 Woodworking - 12.0 Alchemy
20bst, 18mnk, 11rdm, All Others Unlocked (Lv 10 or Less)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=322919 (WHM, BRD, RDM, and BST listed)

Why do you choose pill? Why not condom? Why should female be the one who has to remember to take it everyday?

The only reason female take pill because we don't trust the boys.

I wonder how many guys would actually use a male birthcontrol pill if one existed...

_________________

Character Profile
Mythrandir - Bard *gone*

Regarding coverage of the pill:

While 97 percent of all traditional indemnity plans cover prescription drugs, only 33 percent cover "The Pill."

http://www.covermypills.org/facts/factsheet.asp


There is no man in the world I would trust taking a male birth control pill. In order for the pill to be effective it has to be taken EVERY day at the same time. Failure to do so leaves the pill less effective. Men are not as heavily invested in the matter: if he forgets she will get pregnant. And that's not too fair!